On November 1st, Henry Jenkins, Eric Zimmerman, Jesper Juul, and Santiago Siri were asked to debate the question of whether games were art. In a somewhat chaotic, typically IRC-discussion, with interjections from the peanut gallery (including developers Rich Carlson [eel_rich] and Patrick Dugan), they danced about the issue, and provided some interesting insights, perhaps came to the conclusion that, as Eric put it "Yes No No No Maybe Yes No Sometimes."

Read on for more.

On November 1st, Henry Jenkins, Eric Zimmerman, Jesper Juul, and Santiago Siri were asked to debate the question of whether games were art. In a somewhat chaotic, typically IRC-discussion, with interjections from the peanut gallery (including developers Rich Carlson [eel_rich] and Patrick Dugan), they danced about the issue, and provided some interesting insights, perhaps came to the conclusion that, as Eric put it "Yes No No No Maybe Yes No Sometimes."

Their initial charge:

Hideo Kojima says "“If 100 people walk by and a single person is captivated by whatever that piece radiates, it’s art. “But videogames aren’t trying to capture one person. A videogame should make sure that all 100 people that play that game should enjoy the service provided by that videogame. It’s something of a service. It’s not art."

And Roger Ebert says "To my knowledge, no one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great dramatists, poets, filmmakers, novelists and composers... for most gamers, video games represent a loss of those precious hours we have available to make ourselves more cultured, civilized and empathetic."

Contrariwise, Henry Jenkins says "Computer games are art—a popular art, an emerging art, a largely unrecognized art, but art nevertheless... The time has come to take games seriously as an important new popular art shaping the aesthetic sensibility of the 21st century."

Are games art? If not, why not? And if so, why? Is thinking of games as art useful or actually a hindrance for game developers? If games are art, what should our aspirations for the form be?

Henry Jenkins is the Director of the MIT Comparative Media Studies Program and the Peter de Florez Professor of Humanities. He is the author and/or editor of nine books on various aspects of media and popular culture, including the recently published “Convergence Culture: Where Old and New Media Collide.”

Jesper Juul is a video game theorist and an Assistant Professor in video game theory and design at the Center for Computer Game Research Copenhagen. He is the author of “Half-Real: Video Games between Real Rules and Fictional Worlds” and numerous articles about games, and his prestigious and influential blog is “The Ludologist.”

Santiago Siri is an Argentinean game designer whose work includes Football Delux and Utopia. He works for Three Melons, an advergaming firm that offers innovative branding through games. He is also a writer and theoretician, and his blog, “Games as Art,” is a resource for all members of the game community.

Eric Zimmerman is a game designer and academic exploring the theory and practice of game design. He is the co-founder and CEO of gameLab, a game development company based in New York City; games include the popular Diner Dash. He is the co-editor of several works in the field, including the critically regarded “Rules of Play.”

The conversation was "moderated" (if that's the right term), by Johnny Wilson, Manifesto's EVP of Content and Community, and curator of The Word.

Read on for more.

I doubt what I've done will really be a raging controversy but I stuck it here anyway.

So I've updated the front page, as you can probably tell by now if you're even reading this...

Okay, so I said I'd narrow it down to a final six, and here they are. I'm going alpha by file name, so order does not indicate priority. Snetman's Man!festo logo. Clean, good design, works at various sizes and (with rejiggering) format. Chibar's is very rough--and perhaps a tad rude (the bird appears to be, um shitting a grenade), but the very roughness is appealing, given our basic 'tude. Vince Twelve's logo is also rough, and appealing for that very reason. Matt Smith's is polished and gets across that "we have a message. Nollind Whachell's megaphone logo (on the right) is clean and useable, and the megaphone implies "street demonstration," providing the revolutionary sensibility we offer without saying "I Heart Stalin." Rich Wilson's "M-in-a-gear" is workable, clean, and a nice compromise between polish and roughness. Comment now or forever hold your peace :).